Tuesday, November 4, 2008

Open Election Day Thread

In light of the fact that some places on the web (particularly a certain homeschooling board) don't allow open political discussion, I wanted to offer a spot for those who don't read the more political blogs (and those who do, too--all are welcome!) to talk about anything at all relating to today's election, to the voting experience, to candidates, to ranting generally and so on. The rules are simple:
  1. Please give yourself a nickname (if you don't already use one here) to facilitate conversation with other commenters; there's a space for it, or you can simply "sign" your post.
  2. Please avoid obscene language or abusive comments. If you think people who vote for one candidate or another are acting unintelligently, say so, and say why; "You're stupid!" isn't an argument, and will be deleted.
  3. Please be respectful of people even if you disagree with them. Pro-life Catholic Obama supporters are people I strongly disagree with, but they're still created in the image and likeness of God no matter how sadly and blindly wrong their opinions in this election seem to me; let's remember that regardless of where you fall on this.
  4. Other than these mild restrictions, say whatever is on your mind! This is a huge election, a hotly-contested one, and we'll probably be talking about the results for a long time. So please feel free to express your honest opinions about any facet of it whatsoever.
I'll be monitoring the comments here, but will be as permissive as possible provided the rules above are followed. Let's all join in prayer that whatever the outcome of today's election, God's will for our nation will be done.

Update: C'mon, now, don't be shy. Dozens of you have clicked over from that forum I mentioned--go ahead, tell us how you voted or why you're worried or what you hope will happen! I know you've got opinions. :)

21 comments:

4 is crazy said...

I feel that if the pro-life candidate is elected, nothing will change. If the pro-abortion one is elected, a lot could change, not good!

Paula in MN said...

I've been listening to the conservative radio talk shows today, and what I'm hearing is good. It does seem as if the MSM is starting to pull away from their messiah-candidate.

Red Cardigan said...

Thanks for commenting!

I know it seems like things will never change for the pro-life voters, but I think having Sarah Palin in office would be helpful for that.

Paula, thanks for the "good news" update!

Nikki said...

I was really uplifted by the number of people I saw at Mass today praying for our country. There were at least double if not triple the amount of people for the noon Mass today. Many stayed to pray the rosary. In these uncertain times it was comforting to know there were still so many turning to Our Lord in prayer.

Rebecca said...

I have two comments, not related:

First, I agree with you, 4 is crazy (do you have 4 kids? So do I--I think it's crazy too), that not much would change under McCain on the abortion front, with the *notable* exception of the appointment of pro-life supreme court justices. He made it quite clear in the last debate that he would elect pro-life justices. It's only one thing, but it has potiential for a huge impact on the turning of our country in the future.

Second comment, which is really a question. This is not rhetorical, I really want to know. Are there really any Obama supporters out there who are truly pro-life? I mean, ones who have actually stood there outside an abortion clinic, gone on marches, or written letters, or would, if they haven't had the opportunity?

Siobhan said...

Will Samson cliams to be profoundly pro-life and newly pro-Obama. There's a lively discussion going on at:

http://willzhead.typepad.com/willzhead/2008/09/pro-life-and-pr.html

This discussion actually ended my personal debate about not voting the top spot at all, and put me firmly in McCain's camp.

About today, like you all I am hoping for a McCain upset and a Supreme Court that will undo the travesty that is Roe. At the same time I can't help but feel joyous for all of the African-Americans who never dreamed a black man or woman could aspire to the top job in the country. I live in an integrated neighborhood, and people are walking with a lightness to their steps, and a smile on their faces. Win or lose, their guy showed the world what is possible, and I am hoping that this will go a long way towards healing race relations in this country.

Charlotte said...

On my blog I have a plea for people not to forget about praying for Proposition 8 (gay marriage)in California. As a result, I'm having to deal with a REALLY angry homosexual on my blog. Even though he's throwing the F word around liberally, I am calmly answering to all of his charges against me. Can anyone help me out? Go ahead and post anonymously if you fear he'll come troll/storm around your own blog, just at least sign a name. I could use some help....although maybe he's a lost cause. Still, I feel good about how I'm answering and I feel it's helping me refine my anti-homosexual apologetics. But that's why I ask for help, there's probably arguments and points I haven't thought of. Thanks in advance.

Anonymous said...

The Supreme Court is big. Obama's justices would back Roe. McCain's, at the very least, would chip away at it--maybe even overturn it if he gets enough picks. And Palin may be the most resolutely pro-life person ever to run for one of the two top spots. Nothing may seem like it changes overnight, but the long-term impact of a McCain victory is huge. And the left knows it.

LeeAnn said...

I voted McCain. So far, it's looking like Bush-Kerry revisited. Very close and probably recounts and legal challenges. Sigh.

LeeAnn

Liz Dole has just lost her senate seat.

LeeAnn said...

Chris Matthews and Joe Scarborough are looking a little worried. ha ha I think they were expecting a landslide.

LeeAnn said...

Obama has Ohio and now Matthews is talking about potential members of Obama's Cabinet!

LeeAnn said...

Unless CA pulls a shocker and goes McCain (ha) it's all over. So quickly! Well, at least I have my state's governor's race to look forward to--go Rossi!

ha ha my word verification below is "dumpo"--it's about how I feel!

KC said...

I voted for McCain. I don't believe there's going to much good change coming from Obama. Much of the change will hurt this country terribly. We're going to have to dig ourselves out. I can't get past the most important issue there is: life. What a sad, sad day.

Maria said...

"Are there really any Obama supporters out there who are truly pro-life? I mean, ones who have actually stood there outside an abortion clinic, gone on marches, or written letters, or would, if they haven't had the opportunity?"

Indeed. I have been prolife my entire life -- I have and will continue to march, pray and hold vigil. I attend mass most days of the week and confession weekly. I have prayed for months before the Blessed Sacrament and read the Bishop's statements. And yesterday I voted for Obama. Why? Because I think the culture of death is larger than one party. Abortion is an intrinsic evil -- no doubt. But this is true both in America and around the globe. Both candidates support abortion and other contraceptive measures for those around the globe. I also think economic issues, while not as important as social issues, often force people to commit dreadful evil -- like abortion. I also think that if women did not desire to kill their own children, no legislation in the world could get them to do so. But that is the problem isn't it? The real problem is not Obama, but with women. Lastly, I would note that I asked several priests -- orthodox priests -- explicitly whether it was a mortal sin to vote for Obama, and not one of them said that it was.

Rebecca said...

Maria,

Don't worry; I'm not going to be mad at you, I just really want to understand. I can see you are sincere and well-intentioned. I have two questions I'd like you to answer:

1. Are you aware of the Freedom of Choice Act, and its implications? What are your thoughts on this?

2. Are you aware of the US Bishops statements on voting for Obama? For example,
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=60228

Thanks in advance for your time.

Rebecca

Anonymous said...

Thank you for the opportunity to vent. I am so frustrated and sickened by so called "devout, pro-life" Catholics who voted for Obama. It really goes to prove that the catechesis of the last 40 years has failed the unborn and countless souls who have failed to properly form their consciences to the Catholic Church's teachings.

Rachel

Maria said...

For Rebecca:

1) I think that FOCA is horrible and I pray that the Lord will enlighten the minds of Obama and of congress on this score. However, as I said above, the real problem is not awful legislation, but awful people. How can we get around the fact that millions of women are willing to kill their own children in their own wombs? Abortion is a satanic act. But do you think that those who support satanic acts really care whether it is legal or not? Evil people will commit evil. (I know that sounds harsh -- sorry).

2) Some, but not all, and not even a majority of Bishops spoke on this. I am obliged to listen to the Bishop of my diocese, and the conference of Bishops, and the Pope, but not necessarily the Bishop of another diocese. Think for example about the Bishops in the Netherlands who don't believe in the real presence -- I'm not listening to them. And the Pope was here this year and said nothing about voting for a Democrat. The newspapers say that he called Obama today:

"In a telegram sent to Obama via the U.S. ambassador to the Holy See, Mary Ann Glendon, Benedict assured Obama of his prayers that God would assist him in his "high responsibilities in service to the nation and to the international community" and "sustain you and the beloved American people in your efforts, together with all men and women of good will, to build a world of peace, solidarity and justice."

How could he be that bad if Pope Benedict doesn't think so?

Anonymous said...

I agree with the anonymous Rachel--I am saddened and sickened. To Maria--There are definitely evil people in this world, and some will commit murder. Does it follow that just because some always will, we should not have laws against it? That they do no good? I do agree with Maria in that there is a problem with mothers who feel it is okay to kill their unborn children. However, part of the reason women in younger generations feel it is okay is that legally it HAS been okay since before they themselves were born. If it were illegal, many women would think much harder about doing it. I do know women who have had abortions, and they are haunted by it. The pain never leaves. These women would not have sought them had they been illegal. Thank you for this blog and being able to vent. I've got to train my kids now to have respect for the man whom they know thinks it's okay to kill babies. He is a child of God as well, and I don't know enough of his grandmother's religious background, but if she's in Heaven maybe we can petition her for help! It can't hurt.

Rebecca said...

Maria,

Many, probably most, of the women who get an abortion are frightened and confused. Many of them only need a glimmering of a nudge to help them do what is right--as evidence, the 441 babies saved just by people praying outside abortion clinics during the 40 days for life. Many women testified to the efficacy of operation rescue for the same reason. Do you realize that after FOCA, such peaceful actions as praying outside an abortion clinic may be outlawed? These women will ahve no one to offer them an alternative. And as has been pointed out, it is quite possible that hospitals or doctors refusing to abort will be put out of business. Do you not recognize the dire evil of this? Further, as former abortionists and abortion workers have testified, it's pretty much all about money for them. Without legal sanction, not only will women have more opportunity for mental clarity (many people think that if it's legal it must be okay), but it can't be the vast moneymaking machine that it presently is. Before abortion was legal, there were many, many, many less abortions, not just in sheer numbers but proportionally. I'm sort of stuttering here; I'm absolutely baffled that you're not seeing how super-scary the consequences of FOCA will be, nor how third reich-ish this all is.

On the Bishop point--as you said, you don't just listen to any Bishop because he's a Bishop. Would you listen to your Netherlands Bishop, just because he's *your* Bishop, concerning the real presence? No, you have to judge character/faithfulness to some degree. But the Bishops who have spoken against voting for Obama *are the Bishops who have spoken against abortion*, Maria! The ones who haven't addressed the vote, are the ones who are wishy-washy on abortion, abortionist politicians, and all the things pertaining to the culture of death. If you're a faithful Catholic paying attention, these Bishops speaking out are notable for their orthodoxy, though there have been some formerly quiet ones who have also spoken out. Why would you dismisss what they say?

As for the Pope, I don't see evidence at all that he thinks Obama is a good character, just because he has assured him of his prayers. I'm going to pray like crazy for Mr. Obama too, and thank goodness we have such a holy Pope to plead heaven for us.

Maria said...

Rebecca:

I am prayerfully considering all that you have written. The only thing I really disagree with is the characterization of the women who abort as primarily "frightened and confused." Do you know that the majority of mothers who abort are middle class or rich women?! I think they know what they are doing, they are clear-eyed, and it is hard for me to believe that people that hell-bent on killing their children will be stopped. But on the other hand, 441 babies saved is a real achievement. I'm just not sure what I think about all this.

Rebecca said...

Maria,

Thank you for your prayerful consideration, and for being willing to articulate your thoughts. I think you need to consider this: the key isn't whether the majority of women are aborting with clear knowledge and won't be moved by information or support to keep their babies. If *any* significant number of them *would* change their minds because of viewing an ultrasound or letting their parents know about the situation or seeing people praying for them and their baby--if those things are at all effective, which we know they are, in very significant numbers, then it certainly does matter to the pro-life movement whether something like FOCA is passed. Do not forget the possibility, too, of pro-life hospitals and doctors being shut down, which would go far to confirm people in evil-doing. What good is it, if Obama improves the economic situation such that lower-class women do not feel a *need* to get an abortion, if those women are just going to become middle-class women who *want* an abortion anyway? I again encourage you to take a careful look at the Bishops' statements and the *reasons* they give.

Isn't it rather striking that those 441 women--actually, the number now is said to be five hundred something--those five hundred women, all it took was to see some people praying, for them to change their mind, which shows a high degree of need for just a little outreach, a little information. I just can't believe that very many women are simply blithe about it, though I know the pro-abortionists would like us to think it's very much like having a wart removed and doesn't deeply affect a woman. Why would the pro-aborts be so against showing women ultrasounds? They know that women often change their mind when they see a picture of their baby, that's why. Under FOCA and an Obama regime, I truly wouldn't be surprised to see free speech about life supressed, which is essential to the pro-life cause. I will not be surprised to see the direction turn towards forcing schools and homeschooling parents to teach the homosexual agenda. As we speak, children are being forcibly taken away from their parents in Germany for committing the crime of homeschooling, because the children can't be formed into proper citizens without proper brainwashing. The German officials are open about this; they don't even bother to couch their language. Are we really so far from this as a country? Can't we see such things coming? Allowing and even supporting evil is one thing in a state, and it must be opposed by good people, but when evil starts being mandated, and all opposition starts being suppressed by force, and we start hearing a lot of newspeak, that's when you start getting into scary stuff like euthanasia in the Netherlands, with its special "don't kill me" placards, present-day Germany in its open state-mandated brainwashing of children, and even China with its forced abortion. It's imperative to educate ourselves and fight tooth and nail for our freedom.